Interesting time to be in Canada...
> Autopilot. There's an election going on with the Liberals, Conservatives, NDP and the Block beginning to run hard once again after the Xmas break. The election is set for Jan 23, and the Liberals, according to most of the polls, are poised to win another minority. Jesus, the Liberals can do anything, and I mean anything, and they get in once again. The Conservatives apparently still look too scary for the Ontario electorate, who will determine who will win once again. I just voted this afternoon and NOT for the Liberals. Those bums have been in power waaay too long and have an entitlement attitude that just offends me to no end. And surprise, surprise - yet another scandal has broken out in recent days and will this make a difference? Nope. Those arrogant Liberals can do anything and they will get into power once again. My country is on autopilot. Sigh.
> Year of the gun. I was downtown on boxing day when a shooting took place. A fifteen year old girl, Jane Creba, got killed. Many others injured. She was just out shopping on Yonge Street, a boxing day tradition. Apparently, a scuffle broke out among a few thugs and before you know it, everyone started taking out their guns and well, an innocent girl is dead. My hometown has turned into an American city. The number of gun related crimes this year in Toronto has exploded. I was on the bus today and wondered, for the first time in my life, how many on the bus had a gun. Sigh.
>The Toronto Maple Leafs are 4-0 since I have been in Toronto this holiday season. Apparently I bring 'em much good karma. Go Leafs!!!!
14 comments:
Jesus, the Liberals can do anything, and I mean anything, and they get in once again.
It's not the Liberals' fault that the Conservatives/Allians/Reform/Whateve r the hell they're called nowadays come across as either right-wing intolerant nitwits (same sex marriage .. again?), or as flip-flopping opportunists. The Liberals have certainly done things that they can't be proud of, but, for Christ's sake, the past 12 years have been among the strongest for the Canadian economy .. the budget is balanced, our standard of living has improved, and we are still the envy of many countries around the world. I mean, *why* is this so bad?
The Conservatives apparently still look too scary for the Ontario electorate, who will determine who will win once again.
Given that Ontario is the most populous province, it only makes sense.
I just voted this afternoon and NOT for the Liberals.
What, exactly have any of the other parties done to earn your vote? I mean, other than not be Liberals?
Pretty shaky basis on which to vote, IMHO.
Those bums have been in power waaay too long and have an entitlement attitude that just offends me to no end.
More than re-visiting same-sex marriage? More than likely opening up healthcare to for-profit enterprise? More than following in the illustrious neo-conservative footsteps of GW Bush? More than possibly deploying troops to Iraq, or other places the US deems we should go?
Are the other parties perfect? Hell no. Do I think same sex marriage should be opened up again. Actually no, I do not. Harper has said he will conduct an open vote in the house and that will be the end of it. He will abide by the results. I am ok with that. The real question (for me) is this: Are the Cons still too right for the electorate? Have they come close enough to the centre? I honestly do not know? BUT, I have always believed that you need more that one electable party for a country to prosper in the long run. Yes, I agree that the Liberal have done well on many fronts, but there needs to be a viable alternative that the people can turn to.
That's all I am saying...
Martin.
You still haven't answered the question as to why the Conservatives should be supported?
Yes, Harper has said that he will conduct an open vote on same-sex marriage, but by even doing that .. especially given that the Supreme Court has already ruled on the illegality of denying the right to marry to same-sex couples, he *is* re-visiting the issue. It has been settled .. why even hold a vote, then?
You say 'there needs to be a viable alternative' .. sure .. there always has been. The NDP, the Bloc, the Greens .. all have received votes in previous elections, so obviously all are 'viable' at least to some voters.
The question isn't whether there needs to be a viable alternative .. the question is whether any of the alternatives are better than the current one.
Well, I don't claim to be correct in my politics, but I do claim to put forward my honest view of the landscape at the time. So my views are very open to attacks and interpretation on many levels, especially by those who are political experts. I am not a political expert. Furthermore, I do not want this blog to become a political back and forth between two individuals who are quite entrenched in their views. As with religion and other such topics, this can go on forever without anything being solved.
Having said all that, I will try to articulate my position as I see things, then I will answer your questions...
The Canada I grew up in (60s & 70s), usually had the following make up: Liberals and PCs as the two choices of governing with a strong NDP voice. The Liberals and PCs were centre with one leaning left and other right. The NDP, I have always believed that the NDP should always have a strong voice in parliament because the things they care about (social issues, etc...) need to be spoken, acknowledged and acted upon in some cases. I do not think the NDP should ever form a government. That’s the Canada I grew up in.
My politics has traditionally been right of centre, because that is where I am most comfortable. I’ve always believed that individuals should take care of themselves without assistance from government. We all need to learn to stand on our own two feet. Now, I also believe in compassion, where those who need help, are able to get help – from your family, community and country. When my parents came from Estonia, they got some help to get going but built their lives and family on their own and through their community – both Estonian and Canadian. So that is where my views derive from.
As for your questions:
In general, I find a better system of government occurs when you have the governing party has a threat of being replaced. Otherwise, they could become arrogant and entitled. I have always believed this… I do not claim that this is a perfect situation, but I think it is the best we can have under this system.
The NDP, the Bloc, the Greens are NOT viable options because they will never govern. People often vote not just for a government, e.g. out of protest, for passion of a particular issue (i.e. the environment) and (as stated above) to ensure that a strong social position is represented.
As for same sex, my understanding is that Harper has promised a vote on same sex to his supporters in the past and needs to follow through on it. It is a commitment he made that he feels he needs to honour if/when elected. I do not see a problem with this, as it will not pass. BTW – I do believe in same sex marriage.
My question about the conservatives remains – are they still too far right? Or have they moved centre enough to be electable. Are they still too scary and have many of the old Reform/Alliance policies?
My reason for voting Conservative is threefold:
1. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t4466.html. Again another indication of a government in power too long.
2. I think there are times when change is a good thing. I believe that a Cons government will be more accountable (at least for their first term) and have a fresh approach. Further, I also believe that Harper could make a good prime minister, if given the chance.
3. I particularly like the Conservatives policies for:
a. A stronger security, for crime and borders
b. Their proposed “Federal Accountability Act”, which is legislation that will help clean up government.
c. I like their middle class tax cuts, including the GST. We get taxed to death so the Liberals can get rich. Enough I say!
d. Medical wait times will be addressed.
Those are the prominent reasons. Now will the Conservatives do this? I have no idea. They are politicians. As are the Liberals.
Over and out.
Alrighty .. here's your reasons .. here's my responses ...
1. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t4466.html. Again another indication of a government in power too long.
Firstly .. this is a blog posting that claims to show '199 scandals under Paul Martin's watch'. There are only 68 in the list .. not that that's not a lot, but this calls into question the credibility of the posting to begin with. The website which claims to have the full list seems to have mysteriously lost the original list .. and also seems to be particularly Conservative friendly .. certainly not the most objective source.
Second .. Almost all of these were under Jean Chretien's watch .. anyone who follows Canadian politics should realize that Chretien and Martin, at best disliked each other .. at worst, despised each other .. to suggest that all these happened under Martin's watch, is similar to suggesting that the scandals which occurred under Jean Chretien's tenure occurred under Pierre Trudeau's watch, since Trudeau was PM during Chretien's early years in Parliament.
Thirdly .. a number of them (Sea King cancellation, Tom Wappel refusing to help a blind veteran, Andy Scott losing his job for shooting off his mouth .. ) weren't really 'scandals', in the same sense as the sponsorship affair, or the gun registry, in which money was lost or embezzled.
2. I think there are times when change is a good thing. I believe that a Cons government will be more accountable (at least for their first term) and have a fresh approach.
Why? They've given me, anyway, no indication that they'll be much different than the Mike Harris Conservatives, who rode into town on a similar platform to what Harper is promoting, and basically made a mess of a number of institutions (Ontario health care, education, public transportation) for ideological reasons. One thing to keep in mind, is no party exists in a vacuum .. and both Harris and Brian Mulroney have close ties to the current crop calling themselves 'Conservatives'.
Further, I also believe that Harper could make a good prime minister, if given the chance.
Again, I'd love to know what he's done to earn this trust ..
3. I particularly like the Conservatives policies for:
a. A stronger security, for crime and borders
Law enforcement, firstly, is a responsibility shared amongst provincial and municipal governments. Definint mandatory sentences for various crimes is certainly a way to appear tougher on crime .. however, without having the courts, the police, and the prisons to account for the prisoners who would be held for longer periods, and taking a certain amount of judgement from the hands of judges and appllate courts hasn't proven to do much to affect crime rates.
b. Their proposed “Federal Accountability Act”, which is legislation that will help clean up government.
It may .. but without actually *seeing* the details of the act, we'll never know. The Conservatives *still* haven't released the details of portions of their election platform, and until then, all this is just speculation.
One thing to keep in mind .. in government, indeed in any organization, accountability means records, paperwork, data storage, and audits .. all of which requires beaurocracy, infrastructure, and people. Again, it's all well and good to bring in stringent accountability practices, but if they require hundreds of additional personel (or, months and months) to actually implement, will this actually do anything to affect the potential for mismanagement?
c. I like their middle class tax cuts, including the GST.
The Liberals are also proposing a middle-class tax cut .. in fact, there's one being implemented this year (from 16% to 15% for at least two of the federal tax brackets), so this isn't unique to the Conservatives.
We get taxed to death so the Liberals can get rich. Enough I say!
d. Medical wait times will be addressed.
How will they be addressed? Again, this is an essential question to be asked .. will more hospitals be built? More doctors be hired? Will more clinics be opened? Or, will the shortfall in public facilities be opened up to for-profit facilities? And if so, is this how we wish our public funds to be spent? Is our healthcare something that someone should be making a profit from?
With regards to the Bloc, NDP, Greens, etc. Of course, they're a viable alternative. During an election, we can vote for, or against .. if you vote for, then hopefully your vote is going towards the party that most closely matches your beliefs .. and whether that's the Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, Green, Rhino, Natural Law, or whatever .. to each vother, that's their choice.
If you're voting *against*, though, then that's a different matter. If you're voting to simply throw the Liberals out of office, and really don't care much about who replaces them, well, good luck. My concern is that this is exactly the sentiment the Conservatives are hoping to ride into office .. that people will be so focussed on the misdeeds of the Liberals, that we won't give their platform a terribly close look .. which, unfortunatly is a very similar technique that George W Bush used against Al Gore in the 2000 US election .. and we all see how *that* one worked out.
You raise some good points and as stated earlier, we can go back and forth forever.
Martin.
So ... basically despite legitimate concerns and questions about the Conservatives, and despite disagreements with their platform, you 'll support them to hoof the Liberals out, without regard for what sort of government they'd be.
Just to be clear..
Yes, I have concerns about the Conservatives, as stated earlier, that they have not come towards the centre enough. It is a risk to vote them in, especially in a majority situation. And we may all regret this one day. BUT clearly, there are other factors at play here. And I seem not to be alone in this, according to the latest polls.
My question to you: Why are you so shocked that a change needs to take place? Do you not see what's happening in the country? Your attitude seems to be that a vote away from the Liberals is dead wrong. That, if anyone chooses to vote for the Conservatives or the NDP, it is foolish. Do you honestly not see a scenario where a person would vote away from the governing Liberals?
You said it yourself ...
"We may regret this one day"
You seem to feel that there will be no repercussions of a Conservative government, other than the Liberals getting the backsides spanked. That things will carry on pretty much as-is, and the Liberals will have their time-out.
You seem utterly oblivious to the fact that once the election is over, the party that wins will have to *govern*. I've seen precious little promoting the Conservatives policy, other than the fact that they're not Liberals. And to me, that's not good enough.
I'm not 'shocked' that a change needs to take place .. but I utterly disagree that change for change's sake is, by definition a good thing. Change is what it is ..
And your comment 'your attitude that a vote away from the Liberals is dead wrong', is dead wrong. I actually agree with you that I'd like to see a viable alternative to the Liberals, but to me, the Conservatives aren't it. Why, exactly is this party palatable now, wne as the Alliance, Reform, or Conservative Reform Alliance Party, they weren't? Near as I can tell, the only thing that's changed substantially is the brand name.
We're not voting for a brand .. we're voting for the group that will run the country for potentially the next four years.
Think about it.
Of course there are repurcussions of a Conservative government. It can become a Mike Harris situaion all over again and we'll all be paying for it for a long time. I do realize this. BUT, it might not be as well. I'm hoping that the Conservatives have come centre enough to govern effectively on many fronts.
This recent Globe & Mail article states my feelings on this much better than I ever could...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060114.wxeelec0114/BNStory/Front
Strange article to use to support your position.
The first two thirds acknowlege that the past twelve years have beeen pretty good for Canada. In fact the very first statement in the article is "Canada has been well served by 12-plus years of Liberal rule."
And Stephen Harper isn't spoken of particularly highly either ...
"In 2004, Canadians were not ready to bet on a party just recently knit back together and a leader, Stephen Harper, with a controversial political past and a brittle and angry campaign presence."
Further .. "The question many ask — who is the real Stephen Harper? — cannot be answered with exactitude."
And .. "It is hard to endorse him and his party unreservedly. We worry about his seeming indifference to the need for a strong central government in a country so replete with runaway centrifugal forces. We worry about him teaming up with the Bloc Québécois to weaken the federal government's tax-raising capacity and its advocacy of national programs. We worry that he might have to strike retrograde compromises with social conservatives in the party's midst. We worry that he may prove heavy-handed in wielding the considerable powers of a prime minister."
The whole thrust of the article seems to be that if the Conservatives are elected, public opinion will keep them from straying too far from the centre .. which, to me seems a pretty pie-in-the-sky sentiment. If Harper becomes the next PM, I certainly *hope* this is true, but there is nothing within our system of goverrnment to *force* this to be true, as we've seen with Mike Harris in Ontario, Glen Clark in BC, and even as far back as Brian Mulroney.
The article basically seems to say, that 'we need change, because, well, change is good'.
Strange or not - logical or not - that article does sum up my feelings - bang on.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Cheers,
Martin.
Well, if you like newspaper articles, you'll get a kick out of the article that appeared on page three of the Sunday Ottawa Citizen. No link, but it was titled "Conservatives Rack Up 75 Billion in Election Spending Promises"
It's a summary of all parties' election spending promises. The Liberals come in at 68.5 Billion, NDP at 71 Billion, and the Conservatives at a whopping 75 Billion.
So .. what, exactly do they stand for? Smaller government and less spending? Certainly doesn't seem that way. Lower taxes? If so, this sort of spending could very easly push us into a deficit once again.
You gotta wonder ...
Oh, and to go back to the Globe and Mail article, here's a commentary on it that offers some interesting perspectives.
http://bondpapers.blogspot.com/2006/01/globe-change-for-change-sake-despite.html
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